A Simple Avengers Question

[beamjockey]

The next movie we saw this month was The Avengers. I will try to avoid major spoilers, but if you are worried about them, don't risk reading the comments.

So a large number of [BAD GUYS] are zooming around the skies of [A RATHER LARGE U.S. CITY] and running around the streets destroying buildings and terrified people with [THEIR WEAPONS].

Iron Man is flying overhead and doing lots of damage to [BAD GUYS] with repulsor rays and tiny missiles that fly out of his shoulders.

Captain America, Hawkeye, and Black Widow are mostly reduced to running around on the ground or hopping on top of the occasional bus. None of them can fly, they aren't protected by armor that we can see (one of them does have a shield), and their weapons seem inadequate for the scale of the threat they're facing.*

I began to wonder: Why doesn't Tony Stark make a bunch more Iron Man suits for other members of the Avengers?

It's established that he often builds new Iron Man suits, and that he's not the only guy who can operate one.

Seems like CA, H, BW and maybe others could be much more effective at fighting bad guys, even [BAD GUYS], if they had shiny metal suits.

Why not?





*Black Widow wears a number of cylinders around her wrists, but whatever their function is, we do not see it come into play during the film. There is a "suiting up" scene in which we glimpse a tracery of blue light playing across this wrist-thingy, but that's about it.

Comments

[davidgoldfarb.livejournal.com]

The cylinders on the Black Widow's wrists are her "widow's bite", a short-range energy blast. We do in fact see her using this against the alien soldiers, although I admit it isn't obvious (if you didn't know about it beforehand from the comics you probably wouldn't notice it at all).

Why doesn't Tony Stark make Iron Man suits for the other Avengers? Because that wouldn't be cool. He's armor guy, they have their own unique specialties. Yes, that's not sensible.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Also, if Black Widow had an Iron Man suit there'd be no reason for her to jack that Covenant Banshee, I mean, Chitauri flying thing.

The movie also doesn't even give a reason why James Rhodes/War Machine isn't involved. Probably because there's already so much damn stuff in the movie.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

Also, for those of normal sexuality (here normal means "attracted to another human being", not "hetero") no metal suit could possibly be as hot as Ms. Johansson.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Watsonian explanation: Rhodes is in the USAF and the War Machine armor is Air Force property (I think. Technically Rhodey stole it from Tony's lab, but I think Tony would give him a pass on that one since he unconsciously set the security protocols so only he and Rhodey could use it) He'd need his CO's permission to go flying to NYC to help SHIELD's defense efforts, and there simply may not have been time for him to fly from Edwards AFB to New York.

[davidgoldfarb.livejournal.com]

Not a single one of these pictures is appearing for me.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Images broken for me too.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I went to the page, came back and now they work. May be some kind of only partially successful anti-hotlinking measure.

[bloggingchick.livejournal.com]

Allegedly, the function of Black Widow's wrist cylinders is to fire electro-energy blasts like she did in IronMan 2 (although it appeared then that she actually grabbed a couple of disks from her belt). Probably ineffective on the aliens in Avengers.

My guess as to why he doesn't make more suits for the others may be because he is constantly experimenting making new, improved suits, makes one but never seems to have time for Jarvis to run full diagnostics before he needs it.

The suit may actually hinder the others' agilities. BW would have to put her utility belt on the outside. Also, the suit she wears is supposed to have tiny suction cups on the fingers and feet (allowing her to easily grab hold of one of the flying ships to get to the contraption on the building).

Also, they would not have been able to throw in the Legolas joke when IM flew H up to that rooftop.

And there is only one Ironman.

By the same token, allegedly Hawkeye was trained by Captain America in hand-to-hand combat. Why does only Cap have a shield and no others made for H, BW and Thor?

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I think Cap's shield is supposed to be a one-of-a-kind, hard-to-duplicate thing, much like Cap himself.

[bloggingchick.livejournal.com]

I was not sure if the Shield was a one-of-a-kind or if over time new, better ones were made (similar to Tony making new suits for himself) along with Cap's new uniform. We do know that at least one more shield was made to replace the original (or prototype) that ended up in Tony's possession in Ironman 2.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

The shield appearing in Iron Man and Iron Man 2 looks to have been one of the prototypes built by Howard Stark (probably kept for sentimental reasons after Cap went MIA). Note the plastic surface and the honeycomb interior, compared to the one piece molded shield Cap eventually wields full time in his own movie.

In Captain America the shield is described as being made of Vibranium* (a sound absorbing metal in the Marvel Comics 'verse) and using the total amount of that rare metal that had been found in the 1940's. If it's equally rare in 2012, then it isn't likely Tony would be making everyone shields. At minimum that's what he'd be building his own suits with.

Um, not that I'm a geek about this or anything...

* Technically in the 616 main comics continuity, Cap's shield was created by an accidental, unrepeatable, compositing of Vibranium and Adamantium (the stuff Wolverine's skeleton is made of, which is probably why it wasn't mentioned as being a component in Captain America, since the X-Men movie rights aren't currently under Marvel's direct control.) It's basically the strongest metal in the universe and impossible to break.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

At one point in The Avengers we see it taking a hit from Thor's hammer and making a weird noise, suggesting that it's not made of anything typical.

[bloggingchick.livejournal.com]

The shield appearing in Iron Man and Iron Man 2 looks to have been one of the prototypes built by Howard Stark...

Yes, couldn't remember if I'd read somewhere that the one Tony had was just a prototype.

Cap's shield was created by an accidental, unrepeatable, compositing of Vibranium and Adamantium (the stuff Wolverine's skeleton is made of...

While I have not read the comics in many years, now you mention it I do remember reading somewhere the shield was made of the same stuff as Wolverine's skeleton. I just didn't remember what that was.

If it's equally rare in 2012, then it isn't likely Tony would be making everyone shields.

No, sorry, I didn't word that right. Agent Coulson said he had input in the redesign of Cap's new suit. I wasn't sure if the new suit also included a new shield, if the making of a new shield were possible similar to Tony being able to make new suits for himself. I suppose considering how banged up the Ironman suits get, if Tony could make a suit of the same stuff as Cap's shield, he wouldn't have to keep making new ones?

TBH my memory has never been very good and I usually have to see a movie more than once in order to "get" things. I admit I have seen The Avengers (and both Ironman movies) more than once as opposed to Captain America (and Thor and The Hulk) which I have only seen once each.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure the shield Cap is wielding in The Avengers is the same one that he had in Captain America. It was the first thing the Antarctic expedition found when they entered the remains of the HYDRA bomber.

[rocketmensch.livejournal.com]

Belatedly...
Vibranium is supposedly able to absorb any and all vibrational energy without damage. (What it does with the energy after it absorbs it iis never explained; probably sends it into Hammerspace to power all those "idea" lightbulbs.) That's why Cap can withstand all those energy bolts fired at him in both movies.

It also absorbs kinetic energy of impact, kinda unreliably, rather like Doc Smith's inertialess drive cancelled inertia in some things (spaceships and the bodies of the crew) but not others (every vibrating object on the ships, including the molecules).
For instance, it stops Thor's hammer (which would have driven Cap into the ground, even if Cap himself was strong enough to hold up the shield) but doesn't keep Cap from being blown across the street by a Chitauri (?sp) grenade.

I figured the scene of Thor hitting the shield with his hammer was probably included specifically as a nod to hardcore comics fans, who have (I would guess) endlessly debated the question of "What would happen if Thor's unstoppable hammer hit Cap's immovable shield?" just as some fans endlessly debate "In a battle between the Enterprise and [insert your choice of other starship here] who would win?" or "Could Superman beat The Flash in a race?"

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I would say a logical in-universe reason why Stark doesn't make Iron Man suits for one and all is that they simply don't have time. The team was Nick Fury's baby that got knocked down by the S.H.I.E.L.D. Council, and gets convened anyway at the last minute in the course of a fast-moving emergency. For that matter, Hawkeye is functionally a bad guy essentially until the final battle.

Now, you could ask why Stark Industries doesn't turn out a zillion Iron Man suits for all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s field agents or for the Army, but I think that goes back to Tony Stark's personal issues, his egotism and his belief that he needs to personally control the technology for the greater good, as displayed in the Iron Man movies. It's a good enough explanation for comic-book movies, at least.

I think that in the comics he actually does make a suit for Spider-Man at one point.

[avram]

The main reason is that the Iron Man suit is a weapon, and Stark doesn't want to be a weapons manufacturer. If he wears it, he can control what it does. If he hands them out to people, who knows? It's been established in earlier movies that he doesn't want to hand his the suit over to the government, and Hawkeye, the Black Widow, and all of the various SHIELD agents probably count as government for Stark.

That leaves the Hulk, who'd bust right out of the suit; Thor, who'd probably be insulted if you offered him one; and Captain America, who'd have trouble figuring out how to use it.

[avram]

Also, if Tony wanted to give other people the suit, he'd have to write documentation for it.

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

I can see where that might be a deterrent.

I can kill you with my brain

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Because sooner or later they will have to fight Magneto and it would probably be best if they weren't all trapped inside suits which he can crush with his brain.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

It'd actually be a good explanation, if there weren't indications-by-omission that the X-Men and their mutant enemies don't exist in this contractually-defined variant of the Marvel universe.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

...then again, in comics universes with gigantic numbers of superpowered heroes, you basically have to assume that most of them are just busy with something else most of the time, or you spend all your time asking why hero X or Y wasn't called in to deal with some problem.

[del-c.livejournal.com]

It's a problem for a traditional crime-fighting superhero universe, which Marvel's was in the sixties: it has to look a bit like ours, with the occasional superpowered vigilante. If everybody has the powers it's either future science fiction or alternative world fantasy. If everybody has the powers sooner or later all the hoods have the powers and its a new type of set up again. Such universes have subsequently been written, but Marvel has to keep confabulating reasons why everybody isn't Iron Man.

And then the crime fighting superhero genre draws from the hero stories of the past. The hero has to be uniquely badass because that's the fun of the story, like Gilgamesh or Achilles, or Bjorn (he turns into a bear) and Elk-Frodi (he's got deer legs).

Which is why the origin stories that make the hero an unreproducible accident are more common. You'd have to find a reason why someone doesn't reproduce the powers over and over again. Though I would like to know what feature of mutation causes the X-Men to never have the same power. Marvel Exclusion Principle?

[seawasp]

RE the X-Men unique powers, the mutation is expressed as part of an individual's genome, perhaps, and the exact expression may even be triggered and influenced by precise environmental conditions. This means that even identical twins would likely have different powers unless triggered in the exact same way under the exact same conditions.

[stickmaker.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the epigenetic factors. Even identical twins have different fingerprints.

[del-c.livejournal.com]

Following up to myself, I understand there was a Marvel storyline in which Stark was involved in a project to churn out an army of superheroes (induced superpowers, I don't know if Stark's iron man tech was involved too) and Captain America opposed the project. It's after my time though, and obviously in the (potential) future of the recent movie.

Several Marvel superheroes and villains have come from projects to churn out an army of superheroes, including Cap himself, Red Skull, and Wolverine. It never ends well in the 'verse, because it can't be allowed to end well. Like how there's always a reason Enterprise doesn't get cloaking and an intelligent military computer.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Putting Cap and Stark on opposite sides of a dispute over methods seems to be a recurring theme.

[seawasp]

1) Because it's not "The Iron Men".

2) Because Tony's spent a LOT of time practicing and is, apparently, a born flyer, with instinctive ability to maneuver and fight in 3-D space; many people aren't. There's no time to train them, let alone to build new suits and train them.

3) Because it would hinder the key abilities of the specific characters.

Really, the only ones who would benefit hugely would be Hawkeye and Black Widow, and the latter relies on her agility to deal with problems; Iron Man's pretty quick but he's nowhere near as agile as BW.

[lonotter.livejournal.com]

In the comics he has built suits for a number of other people, and modified other peoples' costumes/equipment.

[apostle-of-eris.livejournal.com]

It's.A.Comic.Book
I was impressed at how well Whedon made it a Marvel comic book.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I suspect much of the effort in constructing the script went into figuring out some way that every single one of the main cast could be indispensable to the story at some point, without it feeling too contrived.

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

This is a problem that everyone who writes an Avengers story (or Justice League of America story, for that matter) needs to solve.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotTailoredToTheParty?from=Main.EigenPlot

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

I see some very creative speculation.

It's all wrong.

Iron Man doesn't make suits for other heroes for the same reason Lex Luthor never gets hit by a meteor. If the Good Guys start actually solving the problem, in three months you don't have a comic book anymore.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

It's a question of "Watsonian" vs. "Doylist" or in-universe vs. out-of-universe explanations.

That's the true, out-of-universe explanation of why, in a continuing comics-based superhero continuity, you can't permanently give everyone superpowers or eliminate all bad guys even if it seems like you could: the moment you do that, it changes the story into something very different, or ends it.

But it helps maintain suspension of disbelief if there's at least some nod in the direction of an in-universe explanation.

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

Sorry, it's the viewpoint I'm equipped with.

I'm an SF author.

I took the red pill AND the blue pill.

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

I'm an SF author.

I took the red pill AND the blue pill.

Say, that might make a pretty good epitaph.

[harvey-rrit.livejournal.com]

Hopefully I have time to think about it.

--Also, I might prefer something along the lines of, "Previously, on HEROES..."

[duane-kc.livejournal.com]

Tony Stark, in comics continuity, did just that; the Guardsman armor, a very de-tuned version of the Iron Man armor, was produced in limited quantities for the guards of Project Pegasus, which was essentially a supermax prison for powered individuals. When Stark found out that elements of this armor and others he had created were being used by criminals, he decided to forcibly remove all examples of power armor based on his designs from any hands but Stark Enterprises. S.H.I.E.L.D. never used the Guardsman armor, or any other Iron Man variant, however.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Wars

[purpleranger.livejournal.com]

One of the earliest What If? stories (from 1977, IIRC) had Tony Stark doing just that. He made armored suits for Giant-Man, The Wasp, and Rick Jones. The main problem in that story was that there was a very steep learning curve as all three were trying to learn how to use the armor at the same time.